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Christians do not even think. God is a Spirit. Is there anywhere a spirit cannot be? You know the answer. The Hebrew word for ‘Spirit’ is is Ruach, and that means breath. Why do you need a Saviour? The Creator is in everyone and everything (Not just Christians) . Let Love motivate your every thought and action, for the Creator is Love.
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17 May 2013 How many has God killed? Complete list and estimated total (Including Apocryphal killings) Drunk With Blood Audiobook: Introduction I kill … I wound … I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and mine sword shall devour flesh. — Deuteronomy 32:39-42 The table shows two numbers: the number given by the Bible, if any, and an estimate, when no biblical number is available. Total number killed by God in the Bible – Using biblical numbers only: 2,821,364 – With estimates: 25 million (The table has been updated to include God’s killings in the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books. I’ll be adding the missing Apocryphal stories in the next few days.) Killing Event Reference Bible’s Number Estimate 1 The Flood of Noah Gen 7:23 20,000,000 2 Abraham’s war to rescue Lot Gen 14:17-19 1,000 3 Sodom and Gomorrah Gen 19:24 2,000 4 Lot’s wife Gen 19:26 1 1 5 While they were sore, Dinah’s brethren slew all the males Gen 34:1-31, Judith 9:2-3 2 1,000 6 Er for being wicked in the sight of the Lord Gen 38:7 1 1 7 Onan for spilling his seed Gen 38:10 1 1 8 A seven year worldwide famine Gen 41:25-54 70,000 9 There will be blood: The first plague of Egypt Ex 7:15-27 , Wis 11:7-8 10,000 10 The seventh plague: hail Ex 9:25 300,000 11 Firstborn Egyptian children Ex 12:29-30 500,000 12 The Lord took off their chariot wheels Ex 14:8-26 600 5,000 13 Amalekites Ex 17:13 1,000 14 Who is on the Lord’s side?: Forcing friends and family to kill each other Ex 32:27-28 3,000 3,000 15 Aaron’s golden calf Ex 32:35 1,000 16 God burns Aaron’s sons to death for offering “strange fire” Lev 10:1-3 2 2 17 A blasphemer is stoned to death Lev 24:10-23 1 1 18 When the people complained, God burned them to death Num 11:1 100 19 While the flesh was still between their teeth, the Lord smote them will a very great plague Num 11:33 10,000 20 Ten scouts are killed for their honest report Num 14:35-45 10 110 21 A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day is stoned to death Num 15:32-35 1 1 22 Korah, his companions, and their families are buried alive Num 16:27 3 9 23 God burns 250 people to death for burning incense Num 16:35 250 250 24 God kills 14,700 for complaining about God’s killings Num 16:49 14,700 14,700 25 The massacre of the Aradies Num 21:1-2 3,000 26 God sent serpents to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water Num 21:6 100 27 Phineas’s double murder: A killing to end God’s killing Num 25:1-11 24,002 24,002 28 The Midianite massacre: Have ye saved all the women alive? Num 31:1-35 6 200,000 29 God slowly killed the Israelite army Dt 2:14-16 500,000 30 God the giant killer Dt 2:21-22 5,000 31 God hardens King Sihon’s heart so all his people can be killed Dt 2:33-34 1 5,000 32 Og and all the men women, and children in 60 cities Dt 3:6 1 60,000 33 The Jericho massacre Jos 6:21 1,000 34 Achan and his family Jos 7:10-26 1 5 35 The Ai massacre Jos 8:1-25 12,000 12,000 36 God stops the sun so Joshua can get his killing done in the daylight Jos 10:10-11 5,000 37 Five kings killed and hung on trees Jos 10:26 5 10,000 38 Joshua utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord commanded Jos 10:28-42 7 7,000 39 The genocide of twenty cities: There was not any left to breathe Jos 11:8-12 2 20,000 40 The Anakim: some more giant killing Jos 11:20-21 5,000 41 The Lord delivered the Canaanites and Perizzites Jg 1:4 10,000 10,000 42 The Jerusalem massacre Jg 1:8 1,000 43 Five massacres, a wedding, and God-proof iron chariots Jg 1:9-25 5,000 44 The Lord delivered Chushanrishathaim Jg 3:7-10 1 1,000 45 Ehud delivers a message from God Jg 3:15-22 1 1 46 God delivers 10,000 lusty Moabites Jg 3:28-29 10,000 10,000 47 Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goad Jg 3:31 600 600 48 Barak and God massacre the Canaanites Jg 4:15-16 1,000 49 Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man’s skull Jg 4:18-22 1 1 50 Gideon’s story: The Lord set every man’s sword against his fellow Jg 7:22 120,000 120,000 51 A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God’s evil spirit Jg 9:23-27 1,001 2,000 52 The Ammonite massacre Jg 11:32-33 20,000 53 Jephthah’s daughter Jg 11:39 1 1 54 42,000 die for failing the “shibboleth” test Jg 12:4-7 42,000 42,000 55 Samson murdered 30 men for their clothes Jg 14:19 30 30 56 Samson killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass Jg 15:14-15 1,000 1,000 57 Samson killed 3000 in a suicide terrorist attack Jg 16:27-30 3,000 3,000 58 A holy civil war (it had something to do with rotting concubine body part messages) Jg 20:35-37 65,100 65,100 59 The end of Judges: two genocides and 200 stolen virgins Jg 21:10-14 4,000 60 God killed Eli’s sons and 34,000 Israelite soldiers 1 Sam 2:25, 4:11 34,002 34,002 61 God smote them with hemorrhoids in their secret parts 1 Sam 5:1-12 3,000 62 50,070 killed for looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam 6:19 50,070 50,070 63 The Lord thundered a great thunder upon the Philistines 1 Sam 7:10-11 1,000 64 Another Ammonite massacre (and another God-inspired body part message) 1 Sam 11:6-13 1,000 65 Jonathan’s first slaughter 1 Sam 14:12-14 20 20 66 God forces the Philistines to kill each other 1 Sam 14:20 1,000 67 The Amalekite genocide 1 Sam 15:2-3 10,000 68 Samuel hacks Agag to death before the Lord 1 Sam 15:32-33 1 1 69 In the valley of Elah: Goliath 1 Sam 17:51, 2 Sam 21:19 1 1 70 David buys a wife with 200 Philistine foreskins 1 Sam 18:27 200 200 71 The Lord said to David, Go and smite the Philistines 1 Sam 23:2-5 10,000 72 God killed Nabal (and David got his wife and other stuff) 1 Sam 25:38 1 1 73 David commits random acts of genocide for the Philistines 1 Sam 27:8-11 60,000 74 David spends the day killing Amalekites 1 Sam 30:17 1,000 75 God kills Saul, his sons, and his soldiers (because Saul didn’t kill all the Amalekites) 1 Sam 31:2, 2 Chr 10:6 4 100 76 David kills the messenger 2 Sam 1:15 1 1 77 David killed, mutilated, and hung Rechab and Baanah 2 Sam 4:12 2 2 78 God helps David smite the Philistines from the front and the rear 2 Sam 5:19-25 2,000 79 God killed Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam 6:6-7, 1 Chr 13:9-10 1 1 80 David killed two-thirds of the Moabite POWs and enslaved the rest 2 Sam 8:2 667 81 And the Lord gave David victory wherever he went 2 Sam 8 – 10 65,850 66,850 82 David killed every male in Edom 2 Sam 8:13-14, 1 Kg 11:15-16, 1 Chr 18:12, Ps 60:1 15,000 25,000 83 Thus did David do to all the children of Ammon 2 Sam 11:1, 1 Chr 20:1 1,000 84 God slowly kills a baby 2 Sam 12:14-18 1 1 85 Seven sons of Saul are hung up before the Lord 2 Sam 21:1-9 7 3,000 86 David’s mighty men and their amazing killings 2 Sam 23, 1 Chr 11 1,403 3,400 87 God killed 70,000 because of David had a census that God (or Satan) told him to do 2 Sam 24:15, 1 Chr 21:14 70,000 200,000 88 Solomon murdered Job and Shimei (per David’s deathbed wish) 1 Kg 2:29-46 2 2 89 A tale of two prophets 1 Kg 13:11-24 1 1 90 Jeroboam’s son: God kills another child 1 Kg 14:17 1 1 91 Jeroboam’s family 1 Kg 15:29 10 92 Baasha’s family and friends 1 Kg 16:11-12 20 93 Zimri burns to death 1 Kg 16:18-19 1 1 94 The drought of Elijah 1 Kg 17:1, Luke 4:25, James 5:17-18 3,000 95 Elijah kills 450 religious leaders in a prayer contest 1 Kg 18:22-40 450 450 96 The first God-assisted slaughter of the Syrians 1 Kg 20:20-21 10,000 97 God killed 100,000 Syrians for calling him a god of the hills 1 Kg 20:28-29 100,000 100,000 98 God killed 27,000 Syrians by making a wall fall on them 1 Kg 20:30 27,000 27,000 99 God sent a lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet 1 Kg 20:35-36 1 1 100 God killed Ahab for not killing a captured king 1 Kg 20:42, 22:35 1 1 101 God burned 102 men to death for asking Elijah to come down from his hill 2 Kg 1:10-12 102 102 102 God killed Ahaziah for asking the wrong God 2 Kg 1:16-17, 2 Chr 22:7-9 1 1 103 God sent bears to kill 42 boys for making fun of a prophet’s bald head 2 Kg 2:23-24 42 42 104 The Lord delivered the Moabites 2 Kg 3:18-25 5,000 105 A skeptic is trampled to death 2 Kg 7:2-20 1 1 106 God’s seven year famine 2 Kg 8:1 7,000 107 Jehoram of Israel 2 Kg 9:24 1 1 108 Jezebel 2 Kg 9:33-37 1 1 109 Ahab’s sons: 70 heads in two baskets 2 Kg 10:6-10 70 70 110 Ahab’s hometown family, friends, and priests 2 Kg 10:11 20 111 Jehu killed Ahaziah’s family 2 Kg 10:12-13, 2 Chr 22:7-9 42 42 112 Jehu and his partner kill the rest of Ahab’s family 2 Kg 10:17 20 113 Jehu assembled the followers of Baal and then slaughtered them all 2 Kg 10:18-25 1,000 114 Mattan the priest of Baal and Queen Athaliah 2 Kg 11:17-20 2 2 115 God sent lions to eat those who didn’t fear him enough 2 Kg 17:25-26 10 116 An angel killed 185,000 sleeping soldiers 2 Kg 19:34, 37:36 185,000 185,000 117 God caused King Sennacherib to be killed by his sons 2 Kg 19:37, Tobit 1:21 1 1 118 Josiah killed all the priests of the high places 2 Kg 23:20 100 119 Just another holy war 1 Chr 5:18-22 50,000 120 God killed a half million Israelite soldiers 2 Chr 13:17-18 500,000 500,000 121 Jeroboam 2 Chr 13:20 1 1 122 God killed a million Ethiopians 2 Chr 14:9-14 1,000,000 1,000,000 123 Friendly fire: God forced “a great multitude” to kill each other 2 Chr 20:22-25 30,000 124 God made Jehoram’s bowels fall out 2 Chr 21:14-19 1 1 125 God killed Jehoram’s sons 2 Chr 22:1 3 126 Ahaziah of Judah 2 Chr 22:7-8 1 1 127 Joash, the princes, and army of Judah 2 Chr 24:20-25 1 10,000 128 God destroyed Amaziah 2 Chr 25:15-27 1 1,000 129 God smote Ahaz with the king of Syria 2 Chr 28:1-5 1 10,000 130 God killed 120,000 valiant men for forsaking him 2 Chr 28:6 120,000 120,000 131 The fall of Jerusalem 2 Chr 36:16-17 10,000 132 The Purim killings: God hath done these things Esther 2 – 9, 10:4 75,813 75,813 133 God and Satan kill Job’s children and slaves Job 1:18-19 10 60 134 Hananiah Jer 28:15-16 1 1 135 Ezekiel’s wife Ezek 24:15-18 1 1 136 Oh! Susanna Dan 13:6-62 2 2 137 Judith is blessed above all women (for cutting off a sleeping man’s head) Judith 13:6-10 1 1 138 The Judith massacre: hang ye up this head upon our walls Judith 15:1-6 1,000 139 Mathathias’s double murder 1 Mac 2:24-25 2 2 140 Mathathias and his friends slay the wicked sinners 1 Mac 2:44 100 141 God killed Andronicus, the sacrilegious wretch 2 Mac 4:38 1 1 142 A Jewish mob killed Lysimachus, the sacrilegious fellow 2 Mac 4:42 1 1 143 God helped Judas Machabeus destroy the wicked 1 Mac 3:1-26, 2 Mac 8:5-6 800 4,900 144 Judas and his unarmed men kill 3000 of Gorgias’s soldiers 1 Mac 3:44-4:24 3,000 3,000 145 The Hanukkah killings 1 Mac 4:34-5:7 5,000 17,000 146 The Machabees brothers slaughter the heathens 1 Mac 5:21-51 11,000 37,000 147 Nicanor’s army: The Almighty being their helper, they slew above nine thousand men 1 Mac 7:32-47, 2 Mac 8:24, 15:27 147,002 147,002 148 Jonathan and Simon destroy the wicked out of Israel 1 Mac 9:46-49, 2 Mac 8:30-33, 10:61 1,000 1,200 149 Five heavenly horsemen cast darts and fireballs at the enemy 2 Mac 8:32-10:38 21,103 21,400 150 God killed Antiochus with an incurable bowel disease 2 Mac 9:5-28 1 1 151 Idumeans, traitors, and Jews in two towers 2 Mac 10:16-17 40,000 40,100 152 Nicanor’s head: A manifest sign of the help of God 1 Mac 7:33-48, 2 Mac 15:1-35 35,000 35,000 153 Aliens at Cades 1 Mac 11:74 3,000 3,000 154 John burns to death 2000 in the tower of Azotus 1 Mac 16:10 2,000 2,000 155 God sent wasps to slowly destroy people Wisdom 12:8-9 1,000 156 Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:5-10 2 2 157 Herod Aggripa Acts 12:23 1 1 158 Jesus Rom 8:32, 1 Pet 1:1820 1 1 Totals 2,821,364 24,994,828 2623 68 Posted by Steve Wells 681 comments: 1 – 200 of 681 Newer› Newest» psybermonkey said… This is quite impressive and I cannot thank you enough for going through in continuing to modify this table. May I make a suggestion though? When I often debate people on God’s morality and use examples of unjustified murder in the bible, the ones that have the best chance at getting through to them are obviously those which are the MOST clearly unjustified – which include the killing of children and innocent people/civilians. Such examples are bears mauling 42 children, Jephthah sacrificing his daughter, God killing King David’s child to punish David, God inflicting thousands if not millions of civilians with tumors, Moses’ army killing women and children, etc. Would you be willing to make a smaller chart or color code particular killings on this one which show God’s most clearly unjust killings – which apologists should have the hardest time finding excuses for? It would be a big time saver for people like me looking for the best examples to depict his barbaric character. Thanks! Sun Apr 11, 01:07:00 PM 2010 skanksta said… Great stuff Steve – you’ve created a wonderful resource for logic. Now your task is documenting the animal death and suffering caused by this monster. Or are you gonna do the Koran next ? Come on – work to do – no rest for the wicked….! Mon Apr 12, 04:08:00 AM 2010 Brucker said… Steve, I don’t recall, but have I ever told you that among many evangelicals, the belief is that the population of the world at the time of Noah was in the billions? This is usually figured due to the idea that the extremely long ages of the antedeluvian forefathers should indicate extreme health, including excellent fertility. Imagine a world where people have lifespans averaging somewhere around 700 years, and they’re mutliplying like rabbits. In short, your estimate for the flood may be way too small for literalists. skanksta, as I’m certain I’ve said before, the work of estimating animal deaths is essentially insurmountable. You’ve got to consider the enormity and complexity of the Israelite sacrificial system, and realize there’s just no way to figure it out. It’s easily in the billions if not trillions. (Not to mention trying to estimate animals killed in the flood; see above.) Mon Apr 12, 08:55:00 AM 2010 Steve Wells said… psybermonkey, thanks for the suggestion. I’m working on it. I hope to have a post with God’s killings ranked with a five star scale of nastiness later today. skanksta, I’d like to make a list of God’s animal killings and I may do that someday. But it’s going to be kind of boring. All the sheep, and goat, and bull slaughters! Still, it would be an impressive list. Of course, I’d also like to get to the Quran and Book of Mormon. I feel kind of guilty about neglecting them. Brucker, I’d never heard that before. The human population at the time of the flood was in the billions? Do you have a link where that idea is expressed? I’d like to add a note about it on the flood post. Mon Apr 12, 09:12:00 AM 2010 Brucker said… This guy gives some discussion, but on a quick scan, I can’t figure out his conclusion: http://ldolphin.org/popul.html Mon Apr 12, 10:05:00 AM 2010 Steve Wells said… That is too funny! So God drowned 9 billion people in the flood? (And the author says he’s being conservative.) I guess I should revise my numbers. Mon Apr 12, 10:19:00 AM 2010 Matthew Blanchette said… There’s no way in hell that nine million people were alive at the time these half-crazed theologians spectulate… mostly because at no point in history, until now, has the population of Earth ever exceeded a billion. Wanna know what actually caused so many people on Earth, today? Centuries of inbreeding. That’s right, the Hapsburgs had it right; however, it was not through brother-sister relationships, but more of distant-cousin-in-the-same-village/tribe/township relationships, that humanity “divided and prospered”. Archeological facts don’t fit with the sacred texts of these hare-brained schemers, however, so they have to rejigger the facts to their satisfaction… oftentimes, with the blatantly amusing results documented above. Mon Apr 12, 11:43:00 PM 2010 teavee said… Voted at Flood post. Seems to work. Tue Apr 13, 12:33:00 AM 2010 Andrew said… > And the author says he’s being conservative or “Conservative” Thu Apr 15, 07:01:00 AM 2010 The Boy Who Couldn’t Fly said… Incredible. Thanks so much for supplying such a massive amount of ammo. Although I’m long past trying to “win” an argument with a true believer, I can’t help imgining that this list would shake the foundational beliefs of the best (worst) of them. Them: “God loves us!” Us: “What about (hyperlink to site)?” Them: “They weren’t US!” Thu Apr 15, 10:41:00 AM 2010 damian said… Not only did you leave a good moral deal breaker for Christianity, but you dealt another blow by pointing out the iron Chariots. So much for omnipotence. If Satan just learns to drive a tank, then it looks like the Cristian myth will be a ton brighter. Wed May 05, 09:40:00 PM 2010 Robert said… Steve, The Book of Mormon (though fraudulent, probably like 99 percent of the bible)is full of battles and killing – my partner is a Jack-Mormon. The Koran too is just riddled with devouring flesh eating the swords. Wed May 12, 08:51:00 AM 2010 Lewis said… I just found your site today–FABULOUS! As an Atheist working in an ofc of “believers,” I am sick and tired of having their hogwash shoved in my face. I’ve known for a very long time that the Bible is 99% hateful, racist BS. Now, thanks to your AMAZING efforts, I can pinpoint specific examples of it. THANK YOU!!! Please keep up the GREAT work! Sun Aug 22, 12:07:00 PM 2010 Robert said… Stunning animals before slaughter is permitted in Islam, not in kosher slaughter. Mohammed condemned cruelty to animals. Animals are not supposed to see other animals of the same species slaughtered. These rules are not always obeyed. Thu Aug 26, 12:03:00 AM 2010 agema-makedonin said… Yahweh is a God of war as it is clearly stated in Exodus 15:3. But his concept in the bible shows clear patter of evolution: http://www.godweb.org/fosdickguide.htm Sun Sep 05, 02:10:00 AM 2010 Bill Hartley said… Just a quick post from an Evangelical. Interesting stats. I’m going to use them during a teaching time at our church tomorrow. I’ll be interested to see how believers synthesize these truths. I’m not quite sure why you take the time to work through statistics concerning a God you don’t believe, and from a source you do not give credence to, the Bible. For those who might believe it, Genesis 6 shares these words from God in light of his creation of man: “The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that EVERY inclination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil ALL the time (emphasis mine). The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, ‘I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth — men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air — for I am grieved that I have made them.'” … Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said ‘I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.'” I share this in light of common secular research that claims that over 100 billion people have lived on earth. That would mean God has specifically killed .0024% of the population (though I would say that 100% of our race dies under the sovereign hand of God). To me, this stokes my understanding of God as graceful, given his anger, disappointment and pain with the human race. I hope that you also give some thought to the main theme of the Biblical story – about a God who creates a rebellious world, and goes to great lengths to save it, not leave it to its own self-destruction. We are all on death row, unless someone intervenes. I believe God has done so. All the best, Bill, Mesa AZ Sat Sep 11, 01:33:00 PM 2010 Daz said… “a God who creates a rebellious world, and goes to great lengths to save it, not leave it to its own self-destruction” Assuming you ever come back to check for replies… See, this is the bit that some of us have trouble with, when you folks start trying to use this as a guide to morality. He created the rebellious world, knowing it would be rebellious, tried to save it from destruction (by who? they had stone-age nukes?), then destroyed it himself, killing, one would assume, a large number of sinless children and unborn babies. If you can’t see the irony in this, and the idiocy of using it as a model to teach moral behaviour, you are truly lost. Tue Sep 14, 01:43:00 AM 2010 creaturagirl said… bill, your last paragraph sums it all up very well for me; which is to say that none of what you said made any sense whatsoever to me. also, asking the question why a non believer would go to the lengths to put up this information doesn’t compute. it makes perfect sense to me. it is to show the absolute hypocrisy in “religious” texts. theologians study these texts but that doesn’t mean they take them as facts. lots of religious people, or devout people do wonderful things in small communities. i really think that is wonderful. however, i don’t have to put up any proof here to back up what i am about to say: more violent acts are done in the name of religion than in the name of any other thing. and that goes for ALL religions, especially christianity. put that in your pipe and smoke it…. Wed Sep 15, 10:44:00 AM 2010 Maeryn said… @ Bill Hartley Regardless of anything these other commentators say, they still are not disproving the existence of God. I found this chart mildly amusing. and rather enjoyed it. Really puts in a new kick in regards to fearing our Lord. One problem I noticed, is that this chart does not take into consideration the fact that God ends all of our lives. Taking us Home or letting us wander for eternity is His choice alone. Cheers. Wed Sep 15, 11:43:00 AM 2010 Sebby said… @Maeryn The existence of God does not need to be disproved. I would suggest you read up on a concept called ‘burden of proof’. Even then, evolution and the big bang provide a way to scientifically and empirically explain the creation and development of the universe. Humanity no longer needs to invoke God as the supreme creator as we did in the days before science. All this chart shows is that were God to exist (an assumption for which there is no proof, no need and little basis), he is a cruel, temperamental and vindictive character who is hardly worthy of our worship. Peace Sat Sep 18, 11:14:00 PM 2010 edwin (aka theven or stein) said… wow this is great! Mon Oct 25, 11:15:00 PM 2010 Harri said… As far as I understand, God has killed every single individual (animals too) that has ever lived. Sun Nov 14, 05:32:00 AM 2010 Annette Gallagher said… Not arguing with your estimates, but how did you arrive at these numbers? I was raised a Baptist preacher’s daughter, and I PROMISE that is the first question anyone in my family would ask…. and they’ll probably deride the answer as “the work of Satan” anyway, but I’d like to have one! Interesting table – thanks for the info! Sun Nov 14, 07:08:00 AM 2010 Steve Wells said… Annette, As you probably noticed, there are two set of numbers: one that I call the “Biblical number” and the other that is an “estimate”. The Biblical number includes only those numbers that are given in the Bible, leaving out things like the victims in Noah’s flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. The estimate column includes estimates for these killings (20 million flood victims, 2000 inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.). Sun Nov 14, 08:17:00 AM 2010 Lojiko said… Roughly equivalent to Stalin. Sun Nov 14, 09:12:00 AM 2010 Robken said… OK I have been reading your comments and most are intelligently based. Though, I would like to throw out another hypothesis (the bible being one of course). Our universe is about 13 billion years old and if the big bang occurred one second later we wouldn’t exist as we are today on planet Earth. To have a bang there must be space, the space that was there at the time of the big bang became empty because of the massive reduction of matter and anti matter. Therefore, there have been uncountable numbers of big bangs and each creating its own universe. Now come the interesting part: because of evolution we are what we are today which has only taken less than a million years which is a blink to fast to see; so, let’s apply that evolutionary process to the energy our minds create which is neither matter or anti-matter, now multiply that process of creating energy (call it what you wish, soul, etc)a trillion, trillion, trillion, times and think, just think, and contemplate this as a possible result, that there is a dynamic force in the universe that is totally at war with itself because of the ying and yang theory and positive and negative, etc. So, when we die what may exist is the energy we leave behind which becomes part of the Universal collective. We have no idea whatsoever of the force, that through the universal evolutionary process, has harnessed and has become an intelligence we can’t even begin to imagine. Another interesting thought is that there may be parallel Universes that were formed because of the splitting during the big bang of other universes that didn’t coalesce. Or, during the contraction process of the Universe it split into two or more contraction entities and they each create their own universe. Sun Nov 14, 12:58:00 PM 2010 Eric Michalak said… By making this list the author and those commenting seem to acknowledge that God exists, which is a step in the right direction. In light of that, I would like to point out a little fact. While God does take some lives without apparent reason or a reason that you may not deem reason enough, you forget that God is also the creator of all life and He is at worst ending something He began. In short, God takes life, but he also created all life. One final point. None of us here on earth are omniscient, and it is unwise in our uninformed state to question the actions of a being who is all knowing. I hope this gets some people thinking in a productive manner. Mon Dec 06, 07:05:00 PM 2010 Dee said… Ezekiel 18:30 and following: “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, LEST INIQUITY BE YOUR RUIN. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! WHY WILL YOU DIE, O house of Israel? For I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF ANYONE, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.” Ephesians 4:14 and following: For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and earth is named… so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith – that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have the strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.” There are many things I don’t understand about God. But I have experienced His love, and I cannot argue with it any longer. He says His ways are higher than our ways. How can we expect to figure out the Creator of the universe? We can’t even figure out what He created (see Job 38-41). I have nothing to prove. God can stick up for Himself. When He shows up for you, you’ll know what I mean. I pray it’s soon. Tue Dec 07, 12:13:00 AM 2010 Luis said… ”He says His ways are higher than our ways.” He would, but apparently they aren’t (check out the kill board. Did you actually look at it, or did over 20 million murders just skip your mind, expunged from relevance by the killer’s soothing words that all is well?), unless by ”higher”, you mean ‘acting like a bloodthirsty human’, in which case I eminently agree with you. God is the lowest of the low. Fuck him. But by all means, if you want to wait for him, then fill your boots. Tue Dec 21, 05:33:00 AM 2010 Luis said… ”By making this list the author and those commenting seem to acknowledge that God exists, which is a step in the right direction.” <— retarded comment. The author does NOT acknowledge God’s existence. He merely tallied the murders that God is PURPORTED to have carried out acording to the events depicted in the Bible, and which Christians who believe in God on the basis of the Bible are obligated to defend. Your comment was as stupid as saying that the author of an article tallying the body count of John McLane believes that Die Hard is a documentary. Weasel, disingenuous comment. Tue Dec 21, 05:40:00 AM 2010 Princess D. said… And that’s just biblical quotes. Just look at how much war and genocide has been committed in the name of G-d. To name a few: The inquisition nearly decimated the entire female population of Europe. The crusades killed G-d followers on both sides. The English reformation killed Catholics because they didn’t worship G-d the right, protestant way. The KKK believed they were following G-d’s orders by slaughtering blacks. And pretty much every monarchical leader felt their every act was ordained by G-d, including war and executions. And that’s just the surface. Mon Jan 03, 03:49:00 PM 2011 Dee said… What of the human person Jesus of Nazareth. Any record of him killing anyone? Not that I recall. I rather remember him doing the opposite – healing everyone who came to him and raising more than one person from the dead. Perhaps one should try to make a chart of all the healings Jesus did in his time on earth. Not to mention his giving up his own life to provide life for others. Could it be that this more clearly demonstrates the character of God? I don’t think you will find God commanding to kill anywhere in the New Testament. Therefore I don’t believe any of the post-biblical “God-willed” massacres as mentioned by Princess D were truly the will of God but rather a result of the corruption of human power. Mon Jan 03, 10:42:00 PM 2011 Luis said… ”Therefore I don’t believe any of the post-biblical “God-willed” massacres as mentioned by Princess D were truly the will of God but rather a result of the corruption of human power. ” 1) By that rationale, why can’t the good that Jesus is purported to have carried out also be the result of ‘human power’? Why just filter out the bad stuff and leave in the good? Why not be consistent? 2) The OT says things, and the NT says things. What’s your basis for choosing what’s ‘really’ the ‘result of the corruption of human power’ and what’s genuinely God ordained? It sounds an awful lot like your criteria is simply ‘whatever Dee likes and doesn’t like’. In other words (for the serious people), it’s ALL human made, the good and the bad. The labels – ‘human corruption’ or ‘God’s goodness’ – are slapped on according to the convenience of the believer. It’s odd that people can’t seem to fathom the simple notion that humans can be responsible for both; so anxious to believe that if something is good, it comes from God, but if it’s bad, it comes from them. Y’all need to start using your book-smarts to exercise your critical faculties rather than just your limbic systems. Tue Jan 04, 08:20:00 AM 2011 larry said… The Bible is the mythical history & culture of the Hebrews & the Tribes of Israel. The murderous spirit that is shown in the Bible, is shown in Israel today. The “John Boy Walton” beliefs of Evangelical Christians ignores the Blood & Gore that streams through the Bible & they pretend that this is the work of a Holy God. If one could print photos of human carnage along side the parts of the Bible that depicts bloody carnage, then these hypocrites would have a hard time explaining. Wed Jan 05, 11:27:00 PM 2011 sim1kinu said… God sent two bears to rip apart boys for making fun of a prophet’s bald head: -42peoples Being burned to death for burning incense: -250peoples God stops the sun so Joshua can kill in the daylight: – 5000peoples Some God-proof iron chariots: another -5000peoples Knowing that there are idiots that will believe this shit and will have meaningless lives because they worship it: priceless There are some things you shouldn’t believe because they are utterly ridiculous. For everything else, there’s MASTERGOD! Thu Jan 06, 07:09:00 PM 2011 Jersey Boy said… can you post the people satan killed in the bible because i would find it hilarious to point out the difference . although neither are real i think it would make a christian turn blue in the face Thu Jan 20, 12:52:00 PM 2011 Wikkid said… In the “God’s Killings in Genesis” list, the number for Noah’s Flood is 30 million while in this list it is 20 million. Other estimates I have seen have guessed it was 3 million. Mon Jan 24, 02:22:00 AM 2011 Steve Wells said… Thanks, wikkid. I’ve changed the Genesis list to 20 million. I used McEvedy and Johes’ Atlas of World Population History for the estimate (which is the most conservative estimate that I’ve seen from a serious historian). There certainly would have been more than 3 million people living in 2400 BCE. Mon Jan 24, 08:24:00 AM 2011 GLaDOS said… Who said God loves us? Fri Jan 28, 02:31:00 PM 2011 Dee said… Jesus did. And not just with words. To answer the comment about why don’t we believe that the good things happen by human power… Humans are very capable of taking life, killing each other, and destroying things. Not to say that God doesn’t do that ever. But when it comes to instantaneously healing people from long-suffering diseases and raising people from the dead – after 4 days, I find it hard to write that off as “human power”. Sun Jan 30, 01:55:00 PM 2011 P said… Me neither I would attribute it to “human imagination”. Btw the whole giving up his live thing? He knew he would come back, he knew he would spend eternity in heaven and he died quite quick compared to some humans who died on the cross. Oh and he died to enable god to save us from god and with the whole trinity thing that is similar to saying that a hostage-taker who killed a few hostages saved the surviving hostages because he surrendered to the police instead of killing them as well. (It shouldn’t be necessary to say this but sadly some christians are quick to claim that someone just admitted that he believes in god: I talk like jesus really sacrificed himself and came back from the death and as if heaven existed. That doesn’t mean I believe it, it’s just inconvenient to write things like “If the story described in the NT were true, then”. Or do you add such disclaimers when you talk about Harry Potter oder Darth Vader?) Wed Feb 09, 09:26:00 AM 2011 Anton said… Pop Quiz… If there are six billion people on earth at the beginning of the Apocalyse, how many people will be left after the angel casts Satan into the pit and bound him for a thousand years? How many kill offs are there in Revelation? Fri Mar 18, 08:14:00 PM 2011 Jens said… God always gets his man eventually, even if he has to roast the earth with the sun to do it. I’m not sure if this has resulted in attempts to get off earth (going to the heavens ?). Thu Apr 07, 01:16:00 PM 2011 Jens said… God always gets his man in the end, even if he has to roast the earth, dissolve it, flood it, rock it to and fro, turn it upside down or bring hell up from the bowls of the earth. This may have lead to attempts to get off the earth (shooting for heaven ?). 😉 Thu Apr 07, 02:05:00 PM 2011 John said… If you want to scare people into being obedient slaves you need a mean son of a bitch god to threaten them with. When I started read the bible as a child I immediately realized what a crock of shit is was just because the god was such a bastard. If god’s is really like that then fuck him. Mon Apr 11, 11:31:00 AM 2011 Ahmad said… The bible has been corrupted. That is obvious. Do not attribute strange things that is in the bible to God. You need to step back and ask yoursleves is He who created your eyes and everything wonderful you see capable of injustice. It is impossible that God would do anything evil. I challenge you to reflect and have a conversation with God and ask Him to guide you. You should read the Quran and open your mind Mon Apr 11, 11:42:00 AM 2011 cuthulan said… A great article and a lot of good work.I have done some work on this subject myself and you might like some of my posts too. Abrahamic monotheism is just original fascism. Its a DEATH CULT that has spread ignorance disease and excused genocide ,theft and book burning! Its symbols are the star(jewish)the moon(islam) which are symbols of the night, and the cross(christian) which is a death and torture device! Judaism was originally invented by Cyrus the Great! Its Egyptian SET worship converted to zoroastrianism! Read more; http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the-invention-of-judaism/ christianity was invented by Emperor Constintine ,he was trying to unite his west and east Roman empires.It was Druidic/Egyptian/Eastern sun worship.His book was the New Testamonies his city Constantinople. The BI-BLE(2 books)and “messianic judaism”,was a later Byzantine invention http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the-invention-of-christianity/ Islam was Quyrsh moon worship converted to messianic judaism by “heretic” monks that lost a constantinople power struggle. http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the-invention-of-islam/ Mon Apr 11, 11:51:00 AM 2011 paul said… To a earlier comment, I believe the Koran has the same GOd… so in effect god would be killing even more people…. Mon Apr 11, 01:42:00 PM 2011 wgabler said… Nice, I was looking for something that would give me the list of the people in quotes in the verse below. 25 million more to be given life in the 1,000 year reign. God is probably quite proud of you at the moment. lol Re:20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw “the souls of them that were beheaded” for the witness of Jesus, “and for the word of God, ” and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. lol Mon Apr 11, 01:54:00 PM 2011 allat said… You forgot the Book of Esther, where Haman is hung on a gallow, and all his sons are killed and his family sold as slaves. And further, where all the Persians = in the thousands -that plotted against the jews were killed by the jews. Revenge by any other name! THAT’S what the jews celebrate so gleefully today! Mass slaughtering in revenge! NOT forgiveness or anything that that! Mon Apr 11, 04:00:00 PM 2011 SurferJoe said… and that is only one god you are talking about…how about the other gods? were they as nice? just wondering, i dont really care, but does anyone know? Tue Apr 12, 04:51:00 AM 2011 Egoigwe said… Nice… but a distinction is important here. The Old testament is essential Hebrew history. The god to which all this is attributable is the god of the Jews (or Lucifer, as he is fondly called by Zionists) and perhaps through this we see the origins of the blood lust that is Israel’s campaign today in Palestine. This belief in a god of vengeance and war underlines Zionist attitudes and that diminishing respect for human life. The God of the Christians is a loving God. A God, which according to narratives, so loved us (sinners) that He gave His only Begotten son that we may live… and which His son urged that we should turn the other cheek. We are all God’s children, like it, know it or not. Clearly, there is a distinction between the god of the Jews and the God that Jesus spoke to us about. You have defined a killer god not a loving God. Tue Apr 12, 01:58:00 PM 2011 stefan said… I think as human beings, we are curious and need to believe in some kind of god, i dont but thats me, i kind of wish i did, would make life a lot easier and death a lot less scary, but come on i think we all know deep down , there is no such thing as god….it is a scary thought at first, but once you begin to understand the universe and our place in it, it becomes fascinating, and if anything religion becomes very dull. i find peace in the fact that when i die i will become eventually part of a new star, gosh even a different life form. it’s science all the way for me, it makes sense, and is a credit to us Fri Apr 15, 03:29:00 AM 2011 ben.scheri said… You forgot the book or revelation where 2/3 of the worlds population will be killed which is ordained by god, including the gog/magog wars where the blood will reach up to the bridles. Talk about violent exclusivism. and then we’re supposed to believe that not only does “god” kill people, but then he tortures them for eternity. To borrow the saying from the great christopher hitchens- “no thinking person can believe this” Thu Apr 21, 10:34:00 AM 2011 Mike Haubrich, FCD said… “We are all God’s children, like it, know it or not. Clearly, there is a distinction between the god of the Jews and the God that Jesus spoke to us about. You have defined a killer god not a loving God. ” What are you talking about? Nowhere in the Nice Testament does anyone say that this is about a different God. And the God of the Nice Testament is not so nice, either. He just made a new rule, and people who don’t follow that rule go to Hell. Wed Apr 27, 06:28:00 AM 2011 Torbjörn Larsson, OM said… @ Robken: OK I have been reading your comment and it is difficult to view it as intelligently based. – What is your point in this context (of a murderous insane god)? – Your ideas doesn’t portray standard cosmology or evolution. * The universe is ~ 14 Gy. * The inflationary cosmology doesn’t depend on a big bang moment but gives an initial condition (inflation) to the big bang cosmology (expansion). In any case it doesn’t make sense to say “later” relative spacetime if spacetime isn’t there. Nor would it affect the later process. * Spacetime as regards inflation and pre-inflation is iffy. There was semiclassical worldlines, but if there was spacetime is uncertain. In any case spacetime is constituted latest after the end of inflation. * Recombination after reheating didn’t empty spacetime but converted particles to radiation. Any energy density decrease was due to big bang expansion. * End of inflation makes multiverses in _some_ theories, but not by splitting but different destinies for different worldlines. * Evolution on Earth has taken all extant species to today in ~ 4 Gy. * Biological evolution applies only to biological systems of course. – And dualism is plain nuts when it isn’t observed, which brings us back to the murderous myth described in the post. Wed Apr 27, 09:56:00 AM 2011 Dee said… first of all, @ Egoigwe: same God in the Old and New Testaments. That’s important. The Old Testament God is not Lucifer – that is another name for the devil brought out of the King James Version translation of Isaiah 14. I don’t claim to understand why God does the things He does, but i don’t believe I have to. There are a few things I have come to understand about Him though: 1. He has always promised to be found by those who seek Him (ex. Jeremiah 29:11-14 and Matthew 7:7-11 are examples) 2. He will never destroy without warning, as seen throughout all the prophets and Revelation. He will first warn and call out for the evil to stop. 3. When His message is responded to and the people return to justice and worship God, He relents or provides a way of escape. (Old Testament examples include Josiah, the city of Nineveh, Hezekiah, Lot, and even the evil King Ahab of Israel). As the Old Testament is a story of the Hebrew people, we see few examples of how God rescued people from other nations from His destruction. (There are some key ones: Rahab, Ruth, Tamar.) God’s message to the people of Judah through Ezekiel: “As I live, declares the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, TURN BACK from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?” (Ez 33:11) @ Anton: there’s a lot of mystery about what will happen at the end. I expect it could be very terrible. I will want to be on the right side because God will provide strength to those who trust in Him and will bring us to a glorious end. All humans stand hopeless before the Almighty, All-Holy God. We all deserve to be consumed by the fire of His wrath for any less-than-perfect thing we have done. Problem is, He doesn’t actually want anyone to die, so He does all He can to save us short of taking away our free will. Scripture indicates that everything/anyone who rebels against their Creator by refusing to worship Him will meet a fiery end – that is a matter of choice for us. I challenge you to try and get to know Him though – you’ll be surprised by His mercy and grace. I mean, how is it that a nation about to be destroyed calls out to God after pages and pages of oracles about His coming wrath and asks for compassion based on His character (Jeremiah 21:2)? Somehow, the God they knew had a reputation of great love and compassion amidst all the destruction. Sun May 01, 02:54:00 PM 2011 Stephen said… Dee said… I challenge you to try and get to know Him though – you’ll be surprised by His mercy and grace. Sun May 01, 02:54:00 PM 2011 Oh, my sweet beejeebers… I almost couldn’t breathe for a good couple minutes after reading this. Thanks for the belly laugh! Steve Weeks Sat May 14, 12:44:00 PM 2011 kathy said… You do not know who you are talking about. He is the High and Holy one that inhabits eternity…he is the Sovereign One, the Great One, Our Wonderful, Counselor, The Way the Truth and the Life…no man comes to the Father but through Jesus….and because you do not know him, your infinite mind cannot grasp the truth. God does not need to answer to you or anyone else. He established his will before the foundations of the world and infinite man cannot go up against a finite God who is majestic in all his ways. Wow do I love him for not thinking or behaving like man…thank you Lord for being IN control. He is the only one to whom we can trust our lives. Our God is a Consuming Fire…. Thu May 19, 07:57:00 AM 2011 Dest_Truth said… Dee said… What of the human person Jesus of Nazareth. Any record of him killing anyone? Not that I recall. Dee, I recommend you read the book of Thomas the Saint. The book of Thomas was removed from the published bible in order to keep the myth of a perfect Jesus intact. In the book of Thomas it states clearly that Jesus, while exceptionally smart and gifted with crazy powers, was just like any other child… mean spirited, arrogant and completely out of control at more than one point. And yes, he did strike a few people down. Mon Jun 06, 09:11:00 AM 2011 Megaphon said… Religion of peace strikes again! Sun Jun 12, 03:36:00 PM 2011 WhatifI said… our life our death r in hand of God. so everyone being born and died is just returning to him! we all r 1 being! Fri Jun 24, 07:27:00 AM 2011 Chankey Pathak said… Nice efforts man! Made a great list. Good work, keep it up! Fri Jun 24, 07:34:00 AM 2011 wynd.and.fury said… For an argument to be effective, it needs to be in terms that the listener can relate to. Seeing that a lot of the arguments for God are in terms relative to faith rather than facts or just common sense is rather embarrassing. So here’s my food for thought: 1) All historical accounts should be taken with a grain of salt, holy book or not. Seeing as the Bible is not absolute – since it was written BY humans and EDITED by humans – it certainly makes little sense to take everything absolutely literally. If anything, it is a guide, a reference, just like any other historical document. The difference is the message and original intent of the piece, the aspect that makes it “God-inspired,” that is what makes it holy, not the literal words. All that being said, the numbers being presented seem to line up with the Bible’s take on history. Way to do your homework Steve. 2) My only argument that seems to be consistent in the proof of God’s existence is the Earth itself. I’m okay with the Big Bang Theory, the Evolutionary Theory, or even String Theory. Why? Because these are not laws of nature or facts; these are ideas for how the world works, and for the most part they do a decent job of explaining many a process. The only issue I have is that they do not explain how any of these processes started and do not effectively convey why our planet has managed to exist without being in total chaos from the start. Case in point: If I were to walk up to any structure – Eiffel Tower, Sistine Chapel, Statue of Liberty – it would be preposterous for me to say that, because I did not see its creation, it appeared here randomly or of its own volition. Nothing in life has demonstrated that things occur consistently or just “come together” by sheer odds or extended periods of time. If I leave a pile of concrete blocks, steel beams and some bolts all on top of a concrete slab for a thousand years, time will not just lead to the creation of a building. The pieces will simply stay right where they are, or wither away. Everything in nature has a source for its existence and we can nearly always prove how. The only thing we cannot prove with science is that which we cannot reproduce ourselves. We can provide evidence in the forms of theories, but without witnessing the phenomena ourselves, we will be unable to conclude it as fact. Fortunately, with our level of intelligence, we are capable of achieving so much simply on theories (I’m looking at you quantum mechanics). Please respond full force, I love debates haha Fri Jun 24, 08:48:00 AM 2011 teresa said… Dear God, please provideth a dictionary for kathy so that she may look up the difference between infinite and finite. In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen. PS- make her less crazy. Fri Jun 24, 09:11:00 AM 2011 paulie09 said… The Bible yet speaks about a time of coming judgement. You have a choice now to heed or ignore. If you ignore – how could you possibly blame God for executing the judgement He has clearly warned you about? Wed Jun 29, 04:34:00 AM 2011 Seymour13 said… @Paulie09 “The Bible yet speaks about a time of coming judgement. You have a choice now to heed or ignore.” That’s like a mobster holding a shotgun to your kneecap and giving you the “choice” to either pay protection money (in this case; unwarrented faith) or get your leg blown off (judgement). Difference is, I actually have reasonable grounds for assuming the mobster is real, as opposed to a supposedly unobservable “god”. 1- One can’t distinguish between the unobservable and the non-existant. 2- Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence. 3- What can be assumed without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. “If you ignore – how could you possibly blame God for executing the judgement He has clearly warned you about?” What an utterly vile and disgusting thing to say. You are the textbook example of someone who’s morals have been utterly corrupted by his religion. Your mother would be so proud… Sat Jul 16, 04:42:00 PM 2011 YS said… i suppose people will just rip me up for writing this but… ok I don’t condone killing. murder is a sin. that is very clear in the Bible. But yes also God has killed according to the Bible. Directly, indirectly. the numbers don’t really matter i think. However, a reason why Christians still proclaim our God is good despite this is because God is not a man. He is the Creator of men. As the Creator, he has the right to destroy. A common rebuttal to that statement is that many he killed were innocent. You are forgetting then that according to the Bible, no one is innocent. Through the original sin of Adam and Eve, not a single one of us is clean. And it is only through grace and mercy that we live at all. And through greater grace and mercy that we are allowed salvation. I know what I said wont convince most people. But I feel like those are points that are not commonly said. It’s impossible to logic your way into the Christian faith, even when logic points to the faith. It says so in the Bible itself. But at least I can show some of the reasoning. Sun Jul 24, 06:00:00 PM 2011 Seymour13 said… -“ok I don’t condone killing. murder is a sin. that is very clear in the Bible.”- So we agree on that. -“But yes also God has killed according to the Bible. Directly, indirectly. the numbers don’t really matter i think.”- Again, agreed. A single life taken absent cause is already too much. -“However, a reason why Christians still proclaim our God is good despite this is because God is not a man. He is the Creator of men. As the Creator, he has the right to destroy.”- Any being that calls itself our god is subject to atleast the same standards of critique as we are, if not MUCH higher standards. To excuse or even condone incompetence and cruelty (especially from a god) is something I will not do. Besides, only a sick individual (probably glutton for punishment/masochist aswell) would think of or even accept something like “As the Creator, he has the right to destroy”. Generally this line of thought reveals a state of mind corrupted by religion, I’d call it a classic case of stockholm syndrome, except ofcourse that this supposed angry god is just imaginary. Mon Jul 25, 10:01:00 AM 2011 Seymour13 said… -“A common rebuttal to that statement is that many he killed were innocent. You are forgetting then that according to the Bible, no one is innocent.”- Now that is one of my main problems with biblical scripture (and one of the main reasons why it is a corrupting force in this world), it teaches you you’re “dirty”, “you’re sinful and you deserve WHATEVER you get” all for being how GOD MADE YOU, and instead of dealing with his own incompetence he takes it out on YOU and ME. (I’ll just assume that you’re putting these points up for argument’s sake, and don’t actually believe this yourself. Because if you do actually believe any of this you’ve automatically disqualified yourself from any intelligent discussion or debate.) -“Through the original sin of Adam and Eve, not a single one of us is clean.”- Adam and eve got punished for god’s incompetence, he put the fucking tree there knowing beforehand they were gonna eat from it (omniscient), ergo; he shouldn’t have put the fucking tree there. Besides, it’s not much of a choice for adam and eve since the very framework they needed to actually REALIZE eating the apple is bad (instead of just hearing the word “bad” but not understanding the implications). To make any kind of judgement call regarding eating the apple they would have needed knowledge of good and evil beforehand, so they could actually UNDERSTAND that eating the apple was bad, and WHY. They didn’t, so they didn’t really know that eating the apple and going against god’s wishes was “bad”, and thus were so easily influenced by the talking snake. But let’s leave that aside for the moment, what’s even worse about this is that the very concept of original sin is that WE’RE actually paying for the wrongdoings of long gone and non-existant ancestors. Adam and Eve supposedly ate the apple, not us, yet god supposedly lets us suffer and even adds to that suffering instead of just *poof*-ing sin away, completely. Because, after all, WE weren’t the ones that ate from the apple. Mon Jul 25, 10:03:00 AM 2011 Seymour13 said… -“And it is only through grace and mercy that we live at all. And through greater grace and mercy that we are allowed salvation.”- Don’t even get me started on the biblican loophole concerning sin (jesus sacrifice), that may actually be the most immoral part in the entire bible (redemption through proxy, and making one person pay for another’s sins). The whole mob-boss analogy (while very accurate) is just icing on the cake in this case. -“I know what I said wont convince most people. But I feel like those are points that are not commonly said.”- Not anymore, no. Because MOST people (even the religious) realize exactly how big a pile of bullshit those “points” are. And everyone seriously using them basically disqualify themselves from any kind of (intelligent) discussion or debate (as I said before) in addition to revealing themselves as morally inferior. -“It’s impossible to logic your way into the Christian faith, even when logic points to the faith.”- Logic actually points AWAY from religion. Faith is unwarranted absolute belief in something without any proof or even just cause to make an assumption. And to have “faith” is in and of itself, illogical. Religion starts where you assume without reason or cause, and assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups. PS: Something to think about; how does supposedly perfect god create an IMPERFECT creation? a perfect being does not make mistakes yet according to scripture MANY mistakes have been made by god. Mon Jul 25, 10:10:00 AM 2011 wynd.and.fury said… @Seymour13: Here’s one way to look at it: Humans are not imperfect because of their design. We are imperfect because we do not automatically default to making one choice – i.e. the “right” choice – in every situation. The amazing thing about our species is the depth of our choice palette; the very fact that so many people on this single post alone have varying views on a single topic demonstrates that. It allows us to experience life uniquely by our own volition, and part of that experience is deciding whether or not you put your faith in that which cannot be readily seen. But like I had mentioned in my previous post, one of the main issues seems to be the literal acceptance of what the words in any given translation of the Bible say. So even if you say “MANY mistakes have been made by god,” you cannot definitively say that because 1) you, nor I, nor anyone else can truly attest to that fact and 2) the definition of a mistake is too fluid. I would address your other points against YS but I want to hear your thoughts first. Tue Jul 26, 05:32:00 PM 2011 Seymour13 said… “Humans are not imperfect because of their design. We are imperfect because we do not automatically default to making one choice – i.e. the “right” choice” If you assume that we were designed, then it’s still a design flaw because in that case we are how we were made, and we weren’t made to default to making the “right” choice. But we are more or less wired as far as choices are concerned, our actions and choices are “predetermined”, we act- and react to things the way we do because we are who we are (influenced by both the circumstances of the situation and things we’ve seen, done, went through, and otherwise experienced). If we made different decisions we wouldn’t be ourselves, but someone else entirely. “But like I had mentioned in my previous post, one of the main issues seems to be the literal acceptance of what the words in any given translation of the Bible say. So even if you say “MANY mistakes have been made by god,” you cannot definitively say that because 1) you, nor I, nor anyone else can truly attest to that fact” True, the bible is a book that has been re-translated and re-written far too often and no-one can say that what the bible says is how things actually happened, or even assume that it is inspired by god (I find it hard to believe that a god’s best attempt at communication is a corrupted book). I was just addressing what the book itself says, as there are (illogical (and even immoral) parts in there. And while there are some people who are a bit more open minded, alot of people take the bible (at least partially) literally. “and 2) the definition of a mistake is too fluid.” That depends, when I say “god’s mistakes” in biblical context I’m generally leaning toward things like an omniscient/omnipotent being putting a certain tree in the garden of eden, giving the talking snake a chance to dupe adam and eve, and so on and so forth, and ultimately failing to solve the problem he created (sin) with the inadequate jesus loophole. Then there’s biblical law, there are truly unreasonable and even immoral laws in the bible. Some of which involving sacrifice, murder, thought crime, (self-)mutilation, discrimination, rape and slavery. Yet this is the same book that is claimed to have been inspired by god, I don’t buy it, those laws could not have come from a god. No ammount of good excuses the ammount of bad that is in there, and the hand of man is far too evident in this book to take it as anything short of a mockery. These things just don’t make sense unless the biblical god lacks the qualities (by admission of the very same bible) it claims god has, in which case we’re not talking about a god, but a fraud. Thu Jul 28, 02:52:00 AM 2011 wynd.and.fury said… @Seymour13: I numbered my responses according to the quotes you responded to. 1) Do you consider your ability to choose how to live your life as a “design flaw”? I would think that the single most important aspect of our lives is the fact that we can shape them as we will, regardless of how anyone else – ethereal or otherwise – wants us to live. As for your “predetermined” argument, you are for the most part correct. People do indeed live according to their experience and their inherent qualities they are born with. But again, no person is a slave to their circumstance. Even if two people are subjected to the same hardships, those two people are still capable of choosing for themselves how they wish to live. THAT, in my opinion, is what identifies us uniquely: not our experiences, but our choices because – or in spite – of them. 2) In my opinion, the Bible was never meant to be God’s “best attempt at communication,” whether you believe in Him or not. While you are right that Bible thumpers and the like may take it literally, I honestly think that the purpose of the Bible is a literary piece like Shakespeare and other great writers and historians: a book filled with stories and historical pieces that differentiates itself because it’s “God-inspired.” And just because people have put their own spin or flavor on the translation doesn’t mean the original intent of the piece is totally lost. However you wish to take it is obviously up to you. One thing I can’t understand though is how you determine morality. To claim that certain acts of God are immoral makes me wonder what your basis for that claim is. I’d like to hear your take on that. 3) Once again, I’m curious where your standard for the proper behavior of an omnipotent, omniscient being comes from, considering you are a finite, limited being like the rest of us. If an all-knowing, ever-present being exists, then how would you comprehend it? We can hardly comprehend the distance from the Earth to the Sun – and that’s a limited distance. If there is anything remotely close to infinite in this universe, can we truly quantify or understand it? I have never seen anything outside of the Milky Way personally, and I’m assuming you haven’t either. But scientists that do research and look out into the cosmos present beautiful and amazing pieces from the stars in photographs for the rest of us to appreciate; if you did not witness it yourself, does that mean you immediately discount it? You may surely doubt it, as would I. But simply not witnessing something for yourself does not discredit it. In regards to God, even if you don’t buy any of the fluff or facts pushed in front of you, “the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence,” as they say right? If there is a God that is anywhere remotely close to how He is described in a “corrupted book,” then we still have no argument. Because ultimately, our life spans are limited to about 80 years or so, and we have no idea who originally wrote anything outside of our immediate scopes or lifetimes. And we are – as you say – limited by our experiences. Many things we do are based on the faith we put in others. Thu Jul 28, 10:52:00 AM 2011 Seymour13 said… “Do you consider your ability to choose how to live your life as a “design flaw”?” No, because I don’t believe we were designed. Ehm, I’ll just assume you missed the point of that bit entirely… “those two people are still capable of choosing for themselves how they wish to live.” What’s more a part of who you are than how you wish to live? I believe I had that covered with “because you are who you are”. “One thing I can’t understand though is how you determine morality. To claim that certain acts of God are immoral makes me wonder what your basis for that claim is. I’d like to hear your take on that.” Excuse me, but are we not on a blog that lists god’s supposed killings? Add to that biblical law of which I previously gave examples and you’ve already got (the first part of) your answer. Everyone who reads the bible can clearly read the atrocities supposedly ordered and condoned by god, also including disgusting mind games such as abraham being told to sacrifice his son as a “test of faith”. Ofcourse we know none of this actually happened, but as always I’m addressing the biblical god (as is the point of this blog itself) and the biblical account of history. “Once again, I’m curious where your standard for the proper behavior of an omnipotent, omniscient being comes from, considering you are a finite, limited being like the rest of us. If an all-knowing, ever-present being exists, then how would you comprehend it? We can hardly comprehend the distance from the Earth to the Sun – and that’s a limited distance. If there is anything remotely close to infinite in this universe, can we truly quantify or understand it?” The standard is MY moral standard, I compare the biblical god to myself and find him utterly inferior to both myself, and to people in general. I also spotted an argument from ignorance (logical fallacy). Sat Jul 30, 05:33:00 AM 2011 Seymour13 said… This comment has been removed by the author. Sat Jul 30, 05:36:00 AM 2011 Seymour13 said… (Steve, I only saw half my post come up, and since I’ve sometimes seen this happen on other sites due to bugs I’m reposting the 2nd part, feel free to disregard this if the original part 2 was posted) “I have never seen anything outside of the Milky Way personally, and I’m assuming you haven’t either. But scientists that do research and look out into the cosmos present beautiful and amazing pieces from the stars in photographs for the rest of us to appreciate; if you did not witness it yourself, does that mean you immediately discount it?” It depends, I have reasonable trust in scientists because it is their job to figure out how things work and results can actually be tested, repeated, and affirmed. And in case of the picture I would actually be able (consider I’d have access to the equipment needed) see it for myself. “But simply not witnessing something for yourself does not discredit it. In regards to God, even if you don’t buy any of the fluff or facts pushed in front of you, “the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence,” as they say right?” Partially true, however it does not help it’s credibility along either, and the greater the claim the greater the need for evidence to substantiate that claim is. But as they also say: “what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence” and “extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence”. “If there is a God that is anywhere remotely close to how He is described in a “corrupted book,” then we still have no argument. Because ultimately, our life spans are limited to about 80 years or so, and we have no idea who originally wrote anything outside of our immediate scopes or lifetimes. And we are – as you say – limited by our experiences.” Not quite sure what your point is with this bit. But I do see yet another argument from ignorance. “Many things we do are based on the faith we put in others.” Srry, I don’t do faith. Faith is absolute belief in something regardless of (and often even in spite of) reason and evidence. Sat Jul 30, 07:55:00 AM 2011 Misael1973 said… Have you ever considered WHY these people died because God made it so? Yeah… please read the WHOLE stories in the bible before u pass judgement on our righteo